The Pope's Recent "Controversial" Comments

[FPENA98]

I was just wondering what people's views were on the reaction to the Pope's remarks in Germany this past sunday.  The Muslim world seems to have gone bonkers over a particular quote in his speech.  What does everything think especially about the reaction to the speech.  Oh, by the way the full text of the speech is here:  http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46474, i wonder how many of those protesting or burning the pope in effiegy have actually read his speech.

[udo]

My understanding is that the Turkish people seemingly read everything written by every world leader and, when that world leader comes to Turkey, organize some protest based upon something they read or believe they've read.  Their protests never actualize to legitimate action.

For instance, they demand the Pope apologize or bypass Turkey.  He will do neither, and the Turkish people won't do anything.

[Maximus]

I thought the Pope's comments were actually quite subtle.  If he is attacking fundamentalist Islams for their use of violence, the attack is shrouded in theology-speak and historical context.  Of course, the great irony is that Christianity (and the Catholic Church in particular) has a history of violence that far surpasses that of Islam.

it is often said nowadays that the synthesis with Hellenism achieved in the early Church was a preliminary inculturation which ought not to be binding on other cultures. The latter are said to have the right to return to the simple message of the New Testament prior to that inculturation, in order to inculturate it anew in their own particular milieux. This thesis is not only false; it is coarse and lacking in precision

If I understand this quote correctly, I disagree whole-heartedly.  I think that the true spirit of Christianity must revolve around returning to the basic messages of Christ's teachings, and not the centuries of medieval interpretation that followed.

I do give the Pope kudos for speaking his mind, and not being afraid to mention the subject of Islam.  Free discourse is an essential ingredient of civilization.

[FPENA98]

It seems to me that the entire point of all this is the idea of free discourse, free from any kind of coersion or threat or censorship.  The Pope was at a university in Germany giving a clearly academic speech attempting to get a dialogue started about violence and religion in our world.  I think the Muslim reaction is to an extent proving the Pope correct that violence and religion have no place in our modern world.  If a nun was indeed gunned down over the remarks of the Pope and countless churches burned and destroyed what does that say about Islam, about those who perpetrated these acts and those who stand by and do nothing to prevent them?  If a cartoon can insult an entire faith to the point where embassies and consulates are destroyed what kind of future can we expect?  Perhaps this is coming down to a conflict of civilizations, between the West and our ideals of liberty, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and association, and those of the Islamic world, where there is no freedom of liberty for the most part, certainly not of religion.  This reminds me of the fiasco that cost Lawrence Summers the Presidency of Harvard, an academic was clearly putting forward a hypothesis to begin a very important discussion about a major problem in our present society, and what is the reaction, shoot the messenger.

[Runner]

I know this sounds simple-minded, but I don't think intolerance is acceptable on any level.  That said, shooting a nun over remarks made by the Pope, or starting riots over a cartoon, takes the concept to an entirely different level. 

Building on what Maximus has said, it seems that the world has come full circle.  The Church's early days were days of considerable tolerance.  However, this quickly deteriorated to the point of that "Soldiers of God" headed to the Holy Land discovered much to their amazement that Islamic culture was 100x more advanced and tolerant than Christian society.  Now the tables have flipped, and it is many fundamentalist Muslims who appear to acting like barbarians.  Why can't Muslims and Christians both get it right?  It's all very frustrating.

[FPENA98]

For the most part, Christianity in most places where it is prevalent, has gone through a phase where it was the dominant institution, Medieval Europe, Mexico and South America after the departure of Spain and other colonia powers.  At some point however, the peoples and societies where this was the case came to the conclusion that it could not continue and a new paradigm emerged where the church and religion was separated from the state, both from state support and state meddling.  Mexico had a civil war over this in the early 1800s.  The Protestant Reformation in Europe destroyed the monopoly in religion that the Church had enjoyed for generations.  It seems to me this has not happened in Islam, in many countries Islam is integrated into the government of many of these countries (Iran, Saudi Arabia for example).  In retrospect, it was probably good for society and religion that this split occurred, but in many of these Islamic countries there is no split and the religion is being corrupted by the power and influence that come from being the dominant institution in a society.  This is why we can have fundamentalist regimes like Iran, until the peoples of these countries come to the realization that religion must be split from government and power I think that we are going to continue to have the problems between Islam and the West.  Indeed, many people view government should be subservient to religion in Islam, sharia-Islam, involves the religion dictating to the state not only what laws there should be but how people should behave/act.  This is but another fundamental difference between Islam and the West that will be a major problem for years to come no doubt.

[MotherEarth]

In the past, when the Pope speaks, on any subject, his words are held to be
direction and counsel for the Christian world.

Islam is still in the century (5th ?) and shows no plans to change.

Do you see any solution?

[udo]

If you think Islam's the problem, then you should watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM

[FPENA98]

Wow, I saw the video.  It is truly scary and concerning.  However, I think most people, at least most people here in the US would label these people a bunch of loones and come fairly close to child abuse in my eyes, I mean these are kids.  That being said, how many of these types of camps are out there, are they as numerous as the madrasas in Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan, and formerly in Afghanistan.  I think we agree that both the Christian versions and the Islamic versions are bad, the problem I have with the Islamic versions is that they are being funded by the state in some cases, Saudi Arabia which funds not only its own but that of other countries, but that these are teaching kids to hate Jews, and other non-Muslim religious groups.  At least with these Christian nut jobs our government isn't paying for them and our society is strong enough to relegate these whackos to the fringes of our society and our politics.

[DanM]

A truly disturbing video.  These are the kids who will grow up to assassinate doctors who perform abortions.  Indoctrination of any kind makes me uneasy, simple because there is a complete absence of free thought and discussion. 

I can't say I agree that Islam is in the 5th Century.  Unfortunately, we only seem to be exposed to the Islamic wacko/violent fringe.  There are many, many Islamic scholars who I suspect could hold their own in any theological debate, and I imagine a good percentage of the Muslims in the world do not support the violent tactics employed by certain groups.

I agree with FPena that the separation of church and state is absolutely critical for progress.  Any government that cites sharia as the ultimate source of authority is headed for trouble.  I would make a note that Israel is also a religious state, although I think they look beyond the Old Testament for legal inspiration.

[Maximus]

The quote below is from an article in CNN.  Apparently the Pope has been backpeddling fiercely after his perceived slight of the Muslim community.

The pontiff will open the doors of his summer residence, Castel Gandolfo, to the ambassadors and members of the Italian Islam Consulta, according to ANSA, an Italian news agency. The Islam Cosulta is a council of the various Muslim community leaders in Italy who meet periodically with Italian government officials.

"The purpose of this meeting is to relaunch dialogue with the Islamic world," a senior Vatican official said on Friday.

Islamic diplomats accredited to the Holy See said they hoped the meeting would help restore trust between the Roman Catholic Church and Muslims angered by the pope's speech last week in Germany.

[udo]

The quote below is from an article in CNN.  Apparently the Pope has been backpeddling fiercely after his perceived slight of the Muslim community.

Yes, apparently he will be in next year's Tour de France, riding backwards.

[Firefly]

ha ha ha! 

[DanM]

This isn't necessarily related, but why elect a pope who's 78 years old?  I understand that teenage popes are no longer fashionable, but isn't 78 a bit long in the tooth?  I realize this controversy was played out in the media quite some time ago, but I'm still curious.     

[FPENA98]

Only the Cardinals would know the answer to your question DanM, however, speculation was that they wanted a "transitional pope", someone who wouldn't be around as long as John Paul II.  I think they also wanted someone who was conservative and Benedict sure fits that mold.