Free Will?

[Josh]

Ah, well, engineering is more a means to an end, actually. It's not a bad way to make a living, for one, and if it means I get to be involved in goings-on up there in outer space in some way, it won't ever become boring, despite the likely overflow of math and standard procedures and such. As for ever being a professor of some sort, I think many engineers often go on to retire and do that, so who knows. Being an engineer is actually not only a job, it's almost an approach to life. You know, being able to design solutions to certain problems based on given information. I guess it's not surprising that's kind of the approach I take to explaining things, too. Just by trying to look at the bigger picture, I mean. So who knows...I'm still only a second year college student. Anything could happen. Thanks for the compliments, though.

[Runner]

The unpredictability implied by quantum mechanics has done away with the Newtonian world view, in which all future events are predetermined. In our evolutionary worldview, there always is a choice: a variety of possibilities, some of which are retained by selection. The defining characteristic of a cybernetic agent is some degree of control over that selection. Because of their capacity for thought, people, moreover, are not only free to choose between given possibilities, but able to conceive novel possibilities and explore their consequences

What?

I found this on a philosophy website.  Are we all cybernetic agents?  Seems that these folks have it all figured out.     Or not...

[DR]

Not the most enlightening quote I have ever read.  However, I wasn't aware that Newton thought that all events were predetermined.  You learn something new every day.   

[udo]

I've considered this, and it seems that (let's go with "Intelligent Design" for a minute)... if God were considering this huge ball of mass-energy, and deciding what to do with it, He could (with infinite intelligence and wisdom), set it in motion and then cause its eruption at a specific moment, so that (using mathematical calculations) billions of years later on one of the trillions of non-fusion objects in space, there strung together a series of amino acids that eventually created life and thus, via evolution, Man.

But how could he know I'd think of that?  Hmm...

[Runner]

I feel like a ten year old when it comes to this stuff.  I understand the basics of the Big Bang theory and the age of the universe, but what set the eruption off?  God?  Where did God come from?  Did he previously rule over a great void?

Okay, enough inane questions for one morning.  I love these discussions, but trying to get to origins of our universe makes my head spin.

[Josh]

From a scientific point of view, the difference between quantum mechanics and the Newtonian world view is that Newton believed, with enough knowledge of the universe, you could eventually predict what would happen in any place at any moment. Basically, that the universe ran like clockwork. But quantum mechanics got rid of this idea because of the uncertainty principle. You can never know everything about an object without affecting the object you're trying to learn more about. And also, quantum effects in nature lead to the fact that there is only a certain probability that an event will occur. Often this is a very high or very low probability, but this leads to the fact that you can never know for certain what will happen in the next moment, and even less about an event in the far future.

[Maximus]

Nice explanation Josh!  It's no wonder you are our top enigma-solver.   

[Gee3666]

...You can never know everything about an object without affecting the object you're trying to learn more about....

Can you say, 'Schrodinger's Cat?' 

[udo]

or "Heisenberg's Dog(ma)"

[gets.kafka]

if we're saying the uncertainty principle implies there is no definite causal chain to determine human action, are we saying that, rather, human action is the result of random, probablistic events?

i don't think that would make any of us feel better.

and then, can we not say that all points in time exist simulataneously, and that instead, it is dynamic, ever-changing, perpetually evolving?
and then, we can not say that god knows our futures due to the static nature of time. (though, that doesn't discount other methods, obviously. or lack thereof.)

i should think it important to consider whether we believe decisions happen in the physical brain, or are made by some supernatural aspect of being. (i.e. soul.) only then can we discuss whether our "will" is determined by physical events, controlled/predicted by a greater being, or not influenced at all.

there are several flavors of determinism, as of free will.
i like cherry.

[Maximus]

there are several flavors of determinism, as of free will.
i like cherry.

I vote for licorice.

[udo]

What if the "soul" in each of us is actually part of the greater God?  Then every decision you make might actually be made by God (via the soul) instead of you, as an individual.  Kind of like if you were hypnotized to react to certain keywords in a specific manner.

[DR]

What if the "soul" in each of us is actually part of the greater God?  Then every decision you make might actually be made by God (via the soul) instead of you, as an individual.

I like this concept, although it makes us seem a bit like zombies.  Each of us is imbued with the divine, and is guided by the hand of God.  So we think we're expressing free will, but in reality doing nothing of the sort...  Interesting.

[gets.kafka]

and one certainly might question some of those decisions made by god, through us...

[udo]

and one certainly might question some of those decisions made by god, through us...

If everything comes from God and both good and evil exist, then God manifests as both good and evil.