Free Will?

[Maximus]

I've always been interested in exploring where various religions/denominations stand with regard to the concept of free will.  Of course, I've been lazy and haven't done much research.  I find the whole notion of free will interesting because if one's chosen deity (we'll call him God) is omniscient and omnipotent, then he already knows whether or not an individual like me will be a believer.  If God has this knowledge, then everything is indeed pre-ordained, and I have no free will.  And if this is the case, can God truly be benevolent?  Help, please.

[Firefly]

interesting question.  what does this do for the concept of 'sin?'  why make sin a metric for entrance into heaven if man's sin is preordained?  seems a bit cruel. 

i've also been a fan of the buddhist concept that's akin to karma.  humans enjoy free will, and they become good by doing good.  no divine intervention is involved there.  in hinduism, though, the hand of the divine is involved in linking karma to human action.  i suppose in either case, individuals are deemed to enjoy free will.  gets rather convoluted.   

[DanM]

Ah yes, determinism, incompatibalism... It's all very interesting.  I believe Hume said that society can't hold someone responsible unless his actions were determined by something.  This would make determinism a necessary precursor to moral responsibility.  Or would it?

I don't know a whole lot about free will in a religious context, but I came across this interesting quote by the Advaitin philosopher Chandrashekhara Bharati Swaminah:

"Fate, as I told you, is the resultant of the past exercise of your free-will. By exercising your free-will in the past, you brought on the resultant fate. By exercising your free-will in the present, I want you to wipe out your past record if it hurts you, or to add to it if you find it enjoyable. In any case, whether for acquiring more happiness or for reducing misery, you have to exercise your freewill in the present."

The notion of building upon or wiping away a past record is interesting.

[Samantha]

I often wonder if a life without free will is worth living.  The thought of having my every action preordained is somewhat repulsive.

[Firefly]

danm, thanks for the quote.  very interesting.  samantha, i tend to agree with you, although the notion of free will is never as straightforward as it seems.

[Givens]

I often wonder if a life without free will is worth living.  The thought of having my every action preordained is somewhat repulsive.

I take a different approach.  For those of us who are exceedingly laid back, simply throwing up ours hands and muttering "Insallah" is a fine way of saying, "It's God's will" and then moving on with our lives.  No need to stress over something that is preordained.

[Samantha]

Insallah?  Not for me, thank you.  Fate may intervene, but I'll never sit back and mutter Insallah or c'est la vie.  Call me high strung if you like.  Free will is everything to me.  In my mind, nothing is preordained.

[Givens]

Is being preordained the same thing as being inevitable?  For instance, the fact the our sun will eventually burn itself out strikes me as inevitable.  But is it preordained?  I think some greater controllling force must exist for the term 'preordained' to apply.  By "Isallah", I only meant that things that are inevitable are things I don't worry about. 

[Samantha]

Hakuna Matatta?  Or is that something else entirely? 

I think there is a certain catharsis associated with "letting go."  I also happen to think that this catharsis is dangerous, because it can strip people of their motivation to achieve their utmost.  If everything is scripted, perhaps you don't need to try quite as hard.  You can just go with the flow and live a life of mediocrity.  See what I mean?

[interpreter]

The concept of free will is  viewed differently by different religions. I am A  independent  baptist and   our  concept of free will is that God has  set us here to follow Him and has given us a choice in doing it.   We have the choice of choosing Him or not. he does know    exactly who will Choose  Christ and who will not choose Christ but he does not  force anyone  to do it. I like to think of it this way.   If you have a chiold who loves Chocolate and hates vanilla and they have a choice of the two  you KNOW what they will choose   because  of  your knowledge.   When  they choose chocolate you are not surprised.  You have not forced them to do anything  it is their own free will, but you  knew  beforehand what they would choose

[Josh]

To some degree, everyone makes choices based on past experiences. Yet at the same time, it's not impossible to go against the trend of past actions. It's simply a balance between an individual and the universe around him or her. To some degree, we affect our world, and to a certain degree, it affects us. If one wishes to include God in the big picture, things aren't necessarily thrown out the window. An omniscient God would obviously know/perceive all that happens in the entire history of the universe, that's part of being omniscient. But to say things are preordained is supposing God has prior knowledge of one's life. To God, assumed to be eternal and outside time, one could just refer to it as past knowledge as easily as prior knowledge. It's like reading a book; suppose it's the book of your life. Each of us, inside time, can only read from our past, and write the present as it occurs. We can only speculate about the future. God, on the other hand, is not only there standing over our shoulder as we write our current chapter, but has been since page one; not only that, but he already owns the posthumous publication as well. As to how much influence God actively has on the story itself, that's a question that is hard to answer with any real confidence. It's hard enough to say how much someone makes decisions individually, relative to the world making decisions for him. Consider the possibility of an omnipotent God guiding one's hand as well, and it may be impossible to say how much real 'control' one has in the direction of one's life.

[Maximus]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Josh.  I find the Christian notion of an omnipotent God interesting.  In some ways, it's oddly comforting, as Givens pointed out.  I always wonder, though, about where free will and responsibility intertwine.  If people believe that God is watching over them and can predict their future actions, it seems to me that those future actions are beyond the control of the individual actor.  In other words, I find the possibility that a divine being can foresee everything we do but still allow us to control our actions difficult to reconcile.  If a divine being controls our actions, how then can we be held accountable by Him (or Her)?

[Josh]

See, I'm defining God here pretty much as being the basic sum total of universal existence, including all things beyond individual comprehension. I mean, God is after all usually said to be a few things: omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, to name a few. These are things that obviously can't be really quantified, that are outside human comprehension...I think it's easy for us, as people, to ascribe to God human qualities, but in reality, God isn't some old bearded guy sitting on a throne in heaven, with a book of knowledge saying who is going to get in and who won't. Personally I don't think God passes judgment on ourselves so much as we do individually. That's pretty much the definition of free will, right? We choose our fate, fate does not choose us. So it's not so much that we end up punished or rewarded for our actions, but we define our own destiny by what we do. I guess that was my main point. Even for people, prediction does not imply control over the future. For God, predicion or forsight really has no meaning, since being eternal, God would not be limited by time's flow. See what I mean? To God, everything has already taken place, is taking place, and will be taking place.

So I guess that's two points. First, God is by definition eternal and already knows everything simply because he is in everything and everywhere all at once. Assuming you ascribe to this definition of God, anyway. And second, this first point does not imply the nonexistence of free will, because knowledge of an event and control of an event are not the same thing, for humans limited to this space and time, as well any sort of eternal deity. There would be no such thing as prior knowledge or foresight for God if he is eternal, as he would in essence 'see' all of time all at once. If that makes sense?

[Firefly]

darling maxi,

i think josh has got you beat.  why should god be bound by normal space/time conventions?  why try to attribute human qualities to a diety?

josh, are you sure you want to be an engineer? 

[Maximus]

Firely, and to think that I introduced you to this site!  You're part of my network, for crying out loud!  Where's the loyalty?

Josh, you make some very good points.  How one defines God is critical to the question of free will, which in some ways in the reason I started this thread.  The concept of free will can take different shapes according to the faith that provides the framework for it.  You have a good mind for this stuff, and I have to agree with Firely when she asks if you really want to be an engineer.  It's a noble job, but you seem to have a knack for explaining things to others well.  Perhaps Professor Josh is in your future.